The Homeward Podcast

Episode 21: Metro Drug Coalition

• Knox Area Rescue Ministries

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Sticky Notes:

  • Recovery is real; it's worth it. Walk through the forest knowing people will join you on your trail and help you out. Have the courage to say, "I'm lost; help me."

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Interested in learning more about us? Please visit karm.org or reach out to Celia at clively@karm.org today!

SPEAKER_00

Hey everybody, welcome to the Homeword Podcast, the show where we illuminate the human stories behind homelessness, redefine what home truly means through real voices, honest conversations, and education that fosters empathy, awareness, and action. Carm is highly rated by Charity Navigator, recognized as the best Christian workplace, and accredited by the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. We are one of 30 rescue missions in the country rated as excellent and distinguished from Citigate. And most recently, we are an Emmy Award-winning organization with our documentary. You can click the link in the show notes to watch it today. Today, on this episode, I'm joined by my new friend Webster Bailey, the Executive Director of Metro Drug Coalition. Webster, it's so good to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01

Good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00

Of course, of course. So for those who don't know, we're neighbors with Metro Drug Coalition. They're right down the street from Carms Shelter, and we serve the Knox area together in some different and similar ways. So, Webster, will you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, your role, all the things?

SPEAKER_01

Sure, yeah. So I grew up here in uh Knoxville, Tennessee, and um uh spent most of my life here. I moved away a couple of times for specific reasons, but always came came back home. And um, you know, I I guess really as it relates to this kind of work, at uh active addiction started in my life, and my own, you know, my own personal uh journey with addiction started in high school and continued on for you know 15-ish years. And at 28 years old, I find myself um pretty, pretty desperate in a lot of places. I I had stuff. You know, I had I had a job, making, you know, real a really great job. I had a place to live, I had a truck, I had a fiance, I had I had all the things that that uh we believe, and at least in our culture, that we need to have to be successful. So I had quote unquote success, but I was uh pretty hollow inside, um, despite having grown up in a wonderful family, uh wonderful community, church, schools, education, private school education, all those things. Um, you know, addiction doesn't discriminate, and you can't you can't buy your way out of that sort of thing. And um and so at 28 years old, um I found myself needing treatment for addiction. Ended up losing a job, losing a fiance. Um life really just kind of turned on a dime, changed on a dime, and and um, you know, uh, and at that point uh I I did what I had to do to save my own life, and that was reach out for help and and and all the things that kind of um helped me find recovery, I guess, or sustainable recovery. And and then um uh losing my job in that process, you know, it was kind of a it was really a whole start over situation for me, career-wise, uh family-wise, everything. So um I I had some time on my hands because like I said, I had lost my job. And so I was doing some volunteering at a local detox center, and I was just going in and essentially making a pot of coffee and drinking coffee with the with the guys who who were in uh actively in medical detox situations, and and I'd been there in the you know, not too I mean just a few months in the past, and and I was just trying to bring them some hope and some joy and some uh sharing my experience with them and did that for several months, and and one of the counselors there on that unit said, you know what, have you thought about working in this field? You're you're good at this. And and I said, uh no, I you know, but anyway, that led to thoughtful conversations and ended up changing career paths and and started uh working as a uh non-licensed, non-clinical sort of an assistant or an aide in a residential treatment program here locally in in East Tennessee and and um and got all kinds of clinical training in that job and in that role and and ended up uh kind of starting, uh I would say, you know, in an in an untrained space and ended up moving up uh in the company and and left there as CEO 15 years later. And um and I kind of I joke, I I did everything but count the money and and dispense medications. That's not on record anyway. We're not you know there were times when nurses couldn't show up because of snowstorms and this and that. But anyway, um so yeah, I mean I did a lot of things under the under uh working there, and that led me to just really a uh a life of working in this field. And so I left there a few years ago and and I'd been involved with Metro Drug Coalition as a volunteer for about 15 years. And um when I left that other place of employment, they said, Hey, um, what would you think about coming to work here? And and uh I said, Yeah, give me a couple weeks to think about it. And I think within 30 minutes I called them back and said, Yeah, let's I I'm interested. Let's do this. So I've been uh been at MDC for three years now, right about three years anyway, and and um really enjoying it. And it's uh different, it's new challenges, it's um it's not the kind of addiction treatment that I'm used to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um there's a there's a lot more community issues that you know that we're seeing.

SPEAKER_00

So tell me what all Metro Drug is able to do. I know what they have done for CARM. I've gone to Narcan training, we've put our volunteers through it, they've come to the mission to do classes for our guest. But what else does Metro Drug offer?

SPEAKER_01

So Metro Drug Coalition is 40 years old. So it's a 40-year-old agency that was essentially started in in the 80s by as a joint venture, we'll say, between the city and the county. And if you think about what was going on in the 80s, this was on the the tail end of the crack cocaine epidemic that swept our nation. And this was essentially at that time it was Metropolitan Drug Commission. So it was very governmental sounding.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and it but it was essentially the the city and county governments coming together saying, hey, how do we protect our children? How do we keep our kids off drugs? That's kind of the general message of what it was. And so that's how it was formed. And so for 40 uh all 40 of those years, youth prevention work has really been the core of what MDC has done, which is reaching youth, and it's not just youth, but it's it's primarily youth. We do prevention work with elderly populations and and other at-risk populations as well, but but primarily youth, and it's whether it's going into the classroom, going into the after-school program, um, going into uh sports league uh while teams are there together and doing some educational stuff, working with teachers, coaches. We go into the juvenile court system, we work with individual with youth when they start getting in trouble with substances. Yeah. We go into the juvenile detention center and work with kids while they're uh incarcerated. So we do a lot youth focused. Um and so that's kind of the uh what I would call the upstream. That's like trying to prevent substance misuse. Right. Um and then we do some of what you alluded to, which is we uh we do the regional overdose prevention strategies. And so we have a couple of folks full-time who are focused on not just distributing naloxone, which is the most people know it as Narcan, that's kind of the name brand. Um, but naloxone is actually the medication. So we distribute that all across our community. We provide it for first responder agencies, we teach and train first responders on how to handle overdose situations. We go in and work with families, agencies like like CARM, like you said. So we go in and we train staff. We're now to the point where we're doing we're doing so much of it, we're having to do more train the trainer stuff. So for an organization like CARM, we would teach CARM how to train your own staff.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And then we would supply the medications that you all incorporate into your annual trainings or whatever. So doing all that sort of stuff, but but really all over the community. Um, people don't think about the you know, the public safety departments of the city and the county, the the folks who are taking care of the parks and recreation area, they often encounter drug abuse in those in those public spaces. And so they're all equipped uh through us. University of Tennessee, we go into the fraternity houses, the sorority houses, the you name it, or we're blanketing the community with overdose reversal medications so that people can be prepared and and then know how to respond in those situations. And then sort of the uh two other pieces that we do is the Gateway Recovery Community Center, which is the physical location of where we are, um, and it's right around the block from Carms uh Rescue Mission, and it's a 22,000 square foot community center for people in recovery. And so we see a lot of different folks. We have people walking through the door who are still actively using, but I would call it, it's called like sober curious now. They're, you know, maybe what are the resources available to me? What would what would getting sober or getting clean look like in my situation? And so we we have folks who would meet with them and talk through those things, and we get people into treatment settings same day, um, regardless of their of their, you know, so a lot of folks need medical detox, and we can help connect them with those resources and uh those kind of things. And so, but we have meetings and groups and and it's not counseling, but it's coaching. We do coaching. Yeah. Um, and then we have a fitness center, a an art arcade, uh, pool tables, uh, music room, art room, uh, to go along with uh to try to create a real social environment that's supportive of people's recovery. So we have people coming through the door who are literally still still in active addiction or or in very early recovery, all the way up to 40 years of sobriety and trying to just build that community. Um and then and then the last piece of what we're doing currently is uh we've uh training and education for the addiction workforce.

SPEAKER_02

So gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

The addiction workforce itself has changed a lot over the last decade uh for a variety of reasons, but essentially what's happened is employers are really no longer training their employees. Uh they you're not gonna get the training on the job that you need. Like when I started in the field, I got the training that I needed kind of on the job and through on-the-job sort of paid training situations. That doesn't happen anymore, and so so we've sort of taken that on, and we're we're providing the the clinical education for the workforce, the addiction treatment workforce.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So you guys got a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01

We're doing a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. I came for a tour, I guess it was probably last year. Um, but seeing like the fitness center and the music rooms and the community spaces, the small group, and all of it was just like, what a gift to our community that this is here and it's accessible and people can get the resources that they need. I mean, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you, thank you. Yeah, there's 100 to 120-ish people a day. Kind of, you know, we we keep metrics and we want to know who's using our spaces. And so we we allow for privacy, but we but we do like to know numbers. So that there are things that we're doing that that don't have a big following, and so we don't want to we want to deploy our resources in smart ways. And so um, but yeah, 100-ish, we'll call it people. That's a safe number.

SPEAKER_00

Do y'all still have the coffee shop?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. So our coffee shop I didn't mention, but it's called Gateway Coffee, and and we employ people in early recovery, so it's designed to be sort of a workforce development kind of a scenario where we hire people who are at least 90 days into their recovery, um, probably haven't been in the workforce in a little while. Yeah. And they're looking as they're looking to get back to work, but maybe they need to brush up on their work skills or you know, just accountability skills and reliability skills and all those things. And so it's designed to be six-month-ish employment. Someone comes in, we call them soberistas instead of a barista. So they're a soberista, and um, and and we help them build a resume and apply for jobs in other places, and so they work with us while they're doing that.

SPEAKER_00

That's really cool. So, could I like bring my team there to have a meeting and get a cup of coffee?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've got rooms that you can reserve and have team meetings or any cool. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's kind of like your typical coffee shop. It's just located in the Recovery Community Center, and it's you know, the folks working it are in are in recovery trying to figure out how to how to do life again.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. And I love the mural that you guys have on outside of your building. I love anything that can add some beauty to that corner of our neighborhood. So that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're working on uh we're renovating our backyard right now. Okay, it should be done in the next uh 60 days, so hopefully by you know, mid uh maybe we'll call it July something would be my target. So uh it'll be a nice um outdoor space with fire pit and movie theater screen outdoor and all on astroturf or putting in garden situation where we can teach gardening classes and that stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Very cool. I love that. Can you talk to me a little bit about harm reduction? Of I didn't have I don't have a background in that at all. And that's one of the things I learned when I came on staff at CARM. So could you educate our listeners a little bit of what it is and what it is?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so harm well, so the term harm reduction is a little bit uh for for some reason it's become slightly controversial. Right. I'll give you the kind of the background on that if you want. But it comes, you know, when uh federal administrations change, people call things different names and so on and so forth. And um the the term harm reduction has been around for a while, but honestly, with the when it was first introduced, harm reduction was really talking about what we now know as medication-assisted treatment or MAT. Okay. So like Suboxone, where when individuals recovering or attempting to recover from opioid use disorder, so this is specific opioid medications, which is the oxycotin and all the things that we've all heard so much about over the last decade, um, harm reduction was what they called uh sort of a medication replacement type of a therapy, where we don't want this individual to use an illicit or illegal substance or use this substance illegally, so we're gonna prescribe a medication. So that was known as harm reduction.

SPEAKER_02

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

So thinking that it reduces crime in the community, reduces danger to that individual from overdose. There's a lot of harms that are reduced in that process. And so that's kind of where the term came from. And then as happens sometimes, people start throwing a lot of things in on that same phrase. So harm reduction became things like overdose reversal medication. So like Narcan or naloxone became a quote unquote harm reduction measure, so reducing the harm of overdose. The same is true with needle exchanges, which we have a couple here in our community, but they're there are several and many, many across the country. Um, and where the belief is that if you provide safe exchange of clean needles for individuals who are going to inject drugs illegally, then you're reducing potential harms in that bloodborne pathogens don't get swapped back and forth from using you by sharing needles and those kind of things. But also the the whole goal there is not just that. Of course, there that is effective, uh one effective strategy to do that. Um, but but the other is uh you're building relationship with those people every time they come, whether it's weekly or monthly, to exchange. Right. And it's an exchange. It's a one a dirty need for every dirty needle you get a clean one kind of a thing. Okay. And so you build relationship. And so uh those individuals who use those services are much more likely to seek help for addiction rather than the people who are not seek engaging in those kind of services. And so um that's kind of the the whole harm reduction in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_00

Um that makes total sense. I think that it's kind of become one of the buzzwords that people you'll see in a Facebook comment section or something. And so it's nice to have an educated definition of what it is.

SPEAKER_01

And and honestly, I mean, just in the landscape that we're that we're in today, we've been sort of I'll say forced, that may be a strong word, but uh to no longer use the term harm reduction as it relates to the overdose reversal uh trainings and and s work that we're doing. Uh frankly, because there was an executive order passed um at the federal level that that said no longer use the term harm reduction.

SPEAKER_02

Oh.

SPEAKER_01

And so harm reduction um is a word that is now searched for by, you know, if you're if you're writing a federal grant and you use the term harm reduction, there's a pretty good chance you're not gonna get that grant because you're you're doing a uh participating in a practice that that the current administration is is not in favor of. Um so it forced us to actually be more specific in our language, which which I like. Um I think when people say we we used to say we do harm reduction work when when speaking specifically about overdose reversal, overdose prevention and reversal support. Um so I think it gives us a chance to better articulate actually what we do because there's there's less gray.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that makes total sense. So you mentioned grants. Is that how you guys are funded? Is it through the state, through federal grants, nonprofit, what's the bad?

SPEAKER_01

Most of our grants come through their state dollars, they come, you know, through well, they could be federal dollars, I guess, but they flow through the state. That's a variety of where they come from. We've got about 22 different grants.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so a lot of different uh grant programs to keep up with and and facilitate. Um state grants again make up uh of the lion's share. Probably 70% of our funding is state grant money. Um we've got some federal grant money that's that accounts for just a little bit that's direct from the federal government to us. Again, some of that federal money goes to the state, and then the state reallocates it.

SPEAKER_02

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

Um but uh but we'll just call it 75% is grant funded in some form or fashion, and 25% is private donations or family foundations or things like that. More local, smaller stuff.

SPEAKER_00

I think the um Narcan kit that I have says like State of Tennessee Department of Health, maybe.

SPEAKER_01

Mental health and substance abuse services, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because I came to the training. I have my kit.

SPEAKER_01

So those positions of the trainers that you that training, they're funded through a state grant.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01

And so anything that a state grant funds, that logo's on.

SPEAKER_00

Makes sense. Okay, very cool. I want to go back to the trainings that you talked about. Okay. Um I think it was just two weeks ago, somebody from your staff came and trained at CARM. What are some other they trained CARM staff, I mean. So what are some other training opportunities maybe for the community that you guys have?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I don't know all of our schedules as well as I maybe could. But uh y'all are busy, so isn't it? We are. We we have an uh someone that's in what uh our faith-based coordinator role. And so uh I know that she's doing a lot um with CARM, different, I'll say divisions or departments of CARM because CARM is quite large. As you know, there's a lot of things going on um in this organization. So um, but Annika uh goes in and works specifically with women around trauma issues and things like that. So we do stigma reduction training, uh adverse childhood experiences, and positive childhood experience training. Um goodness gracious, we I mean a lot, there's probably there's a Rolodex of 20 different things that I would say are what I would call canned presentations, where we can just do at any given point on on, you know, you say go and we we don't have to build the presentation, it's already built. Um and then we can do a lot for for organizations who want something that's a little bit more customized. We certainly we do that. We do trainings in faith organizations a lot. There's a lot of churches and church groups who say, we want to do something to help with addiction issues in our community, but we don't know what the needs are, we don't know what to do. Right. We don't want to cause harm, we don't know how. We can go in and work with those congregations or groups and say, Here's some ideas, here's what's currently being done and who's doing it. Okay. There's a gap here. Is this something that you all are passionate about? And because there's a need here. So so we coordinate a lot of that stuff for actually not just Knoxville, Knox County, but those we do that for pretty much all of East Tennessee.

SPEAKER_00

I was about to ask what area you serve.

SPEAKER_01

Well, again, it goes back to the grant funding, and so different grants have different requirements, but 17 counties is kind of our largest catchment area, and we have several of those of our 22 grants, several of them serve 16, some time some of them are 16 counties, others are 17. It just depends on the on the scenario. But um so yeah, so we it's not it's Knoxville and surrounding community. Makes sense. Um but but don't let that trip you up if you're listening and you're thinking, hey, I I wonder if they can help. Reach out if we're not the right folks that can help with your community or your situation. We'll certainly put you in touch with who can.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. One of the things, so I've been on Carmstaff for over three and a half years now, but one of the first things that I did was going to the community coalition meetings that you guys offer. I didn't know a soul when I moved to Knoxville. I knew my husband. And really that was it. I mean, I didn't know anything professionally. And so I remember getting an email from Bethany inviting me to come to the community coalition, and that was such a good place to like connect with other people, hear from a speaker, but then also you're in the room with the health department, you're in the room with MDC, with VMC, Salvation Art. I mean, just everybody that's kind of doing the same thing. And that's I think the biggest. Thing that I would want our listeners to understand is a lot of times I'll see comments or I'll hear things of that homelessness is a CARM problem or it's a City of Knoxville problem. But it's really, it takes all of us to link arms because you're doing things that CAM can't offer. Right. CARM is doing things that y'all don't do. And so it's it's really finding that spot of, hey, I don't have the answer, but let me connect you with Webster and he might have that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's, I mean, it it truly community is the solution. Um money's not the solution, community's the solution. Exactly. How do we do this better together? And that's that's the that is the uh kind of the focus of that community coalition. That particular coalition you're talking about is really focused on prevention or youth prevention, but like you said, it brings people from the school system, the health department, the city, the county, the uh different agencies that serve youth in our community, that everybody's coming to the table and saying, Hey, I need help with this. Who has an idea? Right. You know, and it's it's a powerful, it's a powerful thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I want to circle back to something you said at the very beginning because I think it's so powerful to people for people to know and understand about addiction doesn't play favorites that it it doesn't matter if you had like you were saying, on paper, you had it going on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But addiction doesn't care. And so I think so many people on our staff have have either experienced addiction, it's in their family, it's in the one of their loved ones, you know, we have a personal connection to it, right? So, what does recovery look like for somebody who comes through your doors?

SPEAKER_01

I know it looks different for everyone, but so I mean, well, just to start at the beginning of that process. So when somebody comes through the doors or or and I prefer they walk in the door rather than call, but so I mean I they walk in the door and they say, Hey, I'm a mess.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I need help. Um, and we're gonna console them, we're gonna love on them, uh, because all of us have been there and we know what that feels like and looks like, and we carry that shame and guilt and fear, and you know, you fill in the blanks. Um, hopefully they've got some desperation because desperation is what prompts different behavior. Yeah, it's how we begin to change as I become desperate enough to do something different. Everybody's individual. So a lot of folks come through our door and they have no resources, they have no money, no insurance, no all I mean, friends, family, job, they've run everything off. I mean, addiction does that, it separates us from those that care about us and love us. Yeah. Um, so people come to the door literally with nothing and no one, and they say, I need help. And we can get them into a grant-funded bed situation, okay. Get them into a grant-funded treatment program, and then when they discharge from that in one month, three months, six months, whatever that looks like for them, our hope is that they stay engaged with us. They come back to the gateway recovery community center and they say, Hey, I just got out of treatment. I was there for three months, or, you know, whatever their story is. I I don't know what to do next. I don't know where to go now. We that's where we that's where we shine again. And so we connect them. So there's about 30 different recovery residences in our community that we have partnerships with that we can help fund somebody getting in the door. Wow. Um, paying their first couple of weeks' rent, maybe first month's rent while they get moved in to a what I would call a vetted um recovery residence, help them get a job, help them. They don't have a driver's license, they they have fines and fees and court issues, whatever. We we do all those things. So we we help individuals, we help them create what what we call a personal recovery plan.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And if you had a personal recovery plan, it's gonna look very different than the person next to you. You're gonna have your own drink, your own dreams, your own goals, your own desires, things you want to accomplish, things that are on your heart. Um, and we're gonna help you achieve what's on your piece of paper.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And we're gonna the next person the same. And so, and then we try to provide the support all along the way for that. So we have a very strong, what I would call a recovery community. We do sober social events, like you know, yeah, football games, but all those things are are televised at our place, and we have big groups of 50, 80, 100 people watching the Tennessee Valls play on Saturday, all as a community, and grilling hamburgers and hot dogs and learning how to have fun sober because that was, I mean, what I'll never forget when I I was a seasoned ticket holder my whole pretty much my whole life, and and I got sober at 28 years old, and now now the Valls are playing, and I haven't been to a game sober that I could recall. And it was like, how do I do this?

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

I had to find people who were who were doing what I was trying to do.

SPEAKER_00

Right, especially in a setting like that when everybody around you tailgate. That's part of that culture.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of firsts that that first, you know, I bet week. Uh, and it was actually a a night game, Florida game. So that was a whole nother thing. But um, but yeah, it was uh it was a very uncomfortable, it was very something that had been so familiar my whole life of Tennessee football, tailgate, and football game, the whole deal. That whole experience was so foreign to me because I wasn't drinking and doing drugs.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I didn't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so we teach people how to do those things.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And you said earlier, community is the that solution. Yeah. Right? And it's really hard to do it by yourself. Nearly impossible to just m wake up and make that decision that's countercultural to what you've done your whole life or most of your adult life. That's so hard.

SPEAKER_01

And in those situations, a lot of times, and I'll I'll say this just really because I I I feel like I should. Um, you know, a lot of times we, and I'm as guilty as as the next person, even though I've uh, you know, been in active addiction and all those things, you know, we look at people who relapse and we think, Yeah, how why did she do that? Or why did he do that? Why did they start doing it again? Those kind of things. And what I what I would say to someone who says that after having a lot of time to think about it, is what re the way relapse happens is is no different than any one of us who've ever been on a diet.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

We go on a diet, we're getting I mean, make it your new year, New Year's resolution, whatever. I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do it different. And my answer or my question to all of those people is well, what happened?

SPEAKER_00

Right. I have started and stopped so many diets.

SPEAKER_01

And and and as as most people have. Right. And relapse on a diet looks really similar to relapse in addiction. So going back to my football game scenario, I'm not drinking, I'm not doing drugs, haven't done them in months. Right. But I get around a crowd of people who maybe understand what I'm doing and that I'm trying to not drink or do drugs anymore.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But they're just, I mean, these people aren't alcoholics, they're just enjoying a cold course light on a sunny Friday afternoon or Saturday afternoon. You know what I mean? It's exactly they don't mean me harm by saying, Hey, do you want a beer? And I say no, but then about the third or fourth person, I'm like, well, maybe I do. Maybe I do. And that's the same. I mean, anytime I've ever fallen off a diet's because somebody was like, hey, uh, it's my birthday, we're gonna go out and get cake. There's cake in the break room. Or there's cake in the break room. And then you ask me enough times, and I'm gonna say, well, one little piece doesn't hurt.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's what a relapse is. That is how relapses happen. And and so it's this is not a weak will, willpower. I mean, willpower plays a part in this whole um equation, but it's it's so much more than that. I mean, we we need uh help from a supreme being to help to help us do all of these things. And um, so yeah, I mean, it's uh I think one of the reasons that we tend to get so I'll say people get it really emotionally invested in this recovery and relapse stuff. And I'm when I'm saying people, I mean the family members and the friends and so on. It's because we've been hurt by that person. We've been hurt by them. Yeah. Um, we want them to do well, um, and then they struggle, and we just I I don't, you know, I don't understand how you could do such a thing. If you loved us, you wouldn't do that. I mean, those are the things that happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I've been in that the family member friend seat of you know what is right.

SPEAKER_01

And why didn't you do, you know, but it's like Well, doesn't isn't it Paul that speaks about that in scripture? It's like I know what's right, but I do the opposite. I do the opposite. Yeah. Exactly. The strength is not in us, it is in him. It is in our higher power to use 12-step language. Yeah. You know what I mean? We have to be fueled by something greater than ourselves.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, that's a good word. That's a good word. So, Webster, one thing that I do on this show every single time is I ask our guest, what would your sticky note be? And so, sticky note is something my youth pastor used to say. And if people didn't remember everything you said, if they could walk away holding a sticky note with the highlights, what would you want that to be?

SPEAKER_01

I'm a pretty verbose guy, which means I say a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Same thing.

SPEAKER_01

That's hard. Um what I would say is recovery is real and it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And walk through it, you know? Um if you could fit all that on a sticky note. Yeah. I would I would also ask for a larger sticky note.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Give me one of the like really tall ones that I can clip.

SPEAKER_01

And uh on a larger sticky note, I would tell a story about about going for a hike and getting lost in the woods. And so I I I think people remember stories. I think this will this will this will stick. When looking back at my life in kind of retrospect and thinking about active addiction and all those things, it's like I I I went on a hike at one at you know, at some point in my life I started hiking and I started hiking in the wrong direction, and I was in the woods. And and then, you know, at 28 years old, I'm looking around and I'm like, where in the world am I? I'm so lost, I don't recognize this place, I don't recognize this space, I don't know how to get out of here. It was in that moment that I prayed and I said, God, if you will help me, I will do anything. That's that foxhole prayer that many of us say. Oh, yeah. Some people say it when there's blue lights in the rear view mirror. Some people say it when I said it while I was skiing one time.

SPEAKER_00

Just get me down this mountain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I'll, you know, I'll do anything. And and um, and when I said that, I didn't have any uh, you know, the sky didn't break open and Jesus come out of the clouds or anything. But what happened for me is people started showing up on the trail on my little life's journey, my little trail. People who'd been lost before too. And they said, Hey man, how you doing? And I'd say, Well, I'm lost. And they'd say, Well, I've been lost and I've been I've been out here too. Let me show you how I got out.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

That's what allowed me. I mean, God used people, God used his children to show me how to get out of the wilderness. And that only happened because this is not me, I became desperate enough to say, I'm lost.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

I'm scared, I don't know how to get out of here.

SPEAKER_00

I need help.

SPEAKER_01

Please help me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Please help me. And then God provided the people to help me. God uses his children to help us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he does.

SPEAKER_01

And um, and that's that's the way it worked for me. And a lot of times the people that I work with and encounter are are scared to say, I'm lost.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Help me. Because we grow up and we live in a culture that says don't get lost, and if you're lost, uh don't ask anyone else. Ask Siri, you know. Right. Yeah. Ask Google to help you figure this out. Yeah. And we try to get better all on our own. And God built us for community.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I need people to help me. Exactly. If you're struggling and you're listening to this, or you know somebody that's struggling and you're listening to this, find the courage, find the willingness to say, I'm lost, help me.

SPEAKER_02

Help me.

SPEAKER_01

You know, and then people will start showing up. Yeah. And they'll have the tools and they'll have the compass and they'll have all the, they'll have the map, and they'll have the hiking boots, they'll have all the gear that you need. Um, and as long as you're willing to follow some, as I call good orderly direction, that's the God.

SPEAKER_00

Uh oh, I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Good orderly direction, then you'll uh you'll find your way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, because it he'll provide it.

SPEAKER_00

That's good stuff. That's good stuff. My last question for you. So this is called the Home Word Podcast. So, what does home mean to you?

SPEAKER_01

Home is my people. It's not my place, it's my people. Yeah. And um going back to community, it's I mean, while while I do love my home, my home place, you know, ultimately my home is where my family is, it's where and it's where those who I choose to call family are. So I mean I know that that family comes in in the blood size, and it also comes in the choice size.

SPEAKER_02

And that's right.

SPEAKER_01

And I've got um, that's my home, is that's my it's my people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, it's um I've gone home to empty houses or like my family's been out of town, and I've been home alone, and I think I can't wait to get home, and I get home, and it it's nice to be there, but it's empty. Right. You know? Yeah. I want my people. So home's where my people are.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Anything else you want to add before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01

I love you and God loves you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, thanks so much for joining us today. This was a great conversation. I learned things. I know our listeners will walk away learning something. And to our listeners, thank you so much for being with us today, and I will see y'all at home.

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Celia Lively

Host
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Will Taylor

Producer
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Laura Lee Cochran

Editor